Episode 193

The Cultural Impact of 'Being Bobby Brown' At 20 with Rich Juzwiak

Twenty years later, Bravo's "Being Bobby Brown" remains one of reality television's most talked-about and controversial shows. The 2005 series gave viewers an unprecedented look inside the home life of Whitney Houston and Bobby Brown, but what was its lasting impact on celebrity culture and reality TV as we know it today?

In this episode, Sir Daniel and Jay Ray are joined by writer and podcaster Rich Juzwiak, whose early 2000s blog "Fourfour" made him a go-to voice for reality TV commentary. Rich brings his unique perspective as someone who covered the show during its original run and has watched the reality television landscape evolve dramatically since then.

The conversation explores how "Being Bobby Brown" differed from other celebrity reality shows of its era, the complicated questions around exploitation versus entertainment, and whether Whitney and Bobby's raw, unfiltered moments on camera could exist in today's social media-driven world. From the show's cultural significance to its place in Whitney Houston's complex legacy, this discussion examines how one brief reality series captured a moment in time that feels both nostalgic and impossible to recreate.

Whether you lived through the original buzz or discovered the show years later, this episode offers fresh insights into a piece of television that continues to spark debate about fame, privacy, and the price of letting cameras into your life.

Follow Rich Juzwiak

Twitter: https://x.com/RichJuz

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/richjuz/

Follow Pot Psychology: https://link.queuepoints.com/iRY5

Rich Juzwiak Biography

Rich Juzwiak is a writer and podcaster from Brooklyn. He is the co-host of the Pot Psych podcast and the co-writer of Slate's love and sex advice column, How to Do It. His work has appeared in the New York Times, Pitchfork, TIME, Esquire, The Washington Post, the Los Angeles Times, and more.

Chapter Markers

00:00 Intro Theme

00:16 Welcome to Queue Points Podcast

01:26 The Unseen World of 'Being Bobby Brown'

02:05 The Golden Age of Blogs and Reality TV

04:15 Introducing Our Special Guest: Rich Juzwiak

05:39 Diving into Reality TV's Impact

07:56 The Realness of Early Reality TV

12:19 The Cultural Impact of 'Being Bobby Brown'

18:36 Reflecting on Whitney and Bobby's Legacy

20:38 The Exploitation in Reality TV

22:29 The Evolution of Reality TV

24:18 The Decline of Celebrity Reality Shows

26:25 The Unique Impact of 'Being Bobby Brown'

28:49 Current Pop Culture Highlights

30:52 Connecting with Rich Juzwiak

32:43 Closing Remarks and Farewell

34:06 Outro Theme

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Transcript
Sir Daniel:

Greetings and welcome to another episode of Queue Points podcast.

Sir Daniel:

I'm DJ Sir Daniel.

Jay Ray:

And my name is Jay Ray, sometimes known by my governments as Johnnie Ray

Jay Ray:

Kornegay III And we are going back in time to something I somehow avoided Sir

Sir Daniel:

Listen, I can't believe that you and I have been co-hosting

Sir Daniel:

Queue Points for, what, four years now?

Sir Daniel:

We've known each other for over a decade.

Sir Daniel:

We've been entangled musically for as long as we've known each other.

Sir Daniel:

The fact.

Sir Daniel:

That you have never, ever watched an episode or seen an episode of

Sir Daniel:

Being Bobby Brown is, I don't know.

Sir Daniel:

It feels irresponsible.

Sir Daniel:

And you know, you just knowing me, you know that I've seen

Sir Daniel:

it because I like foolishness.

Sir Daniel:

I like camp.

Sir Daniel:

And Being Bobby Brown, um, was all of those things encompassed

Sir Daniel:

in a, in like what an hour?

Sir Daniel:

Hours worth of reality TV show.

Jay Ray:

They were, uh, so I finally have

Sir Daniel:

Oh,

Jay Ray:

episodes, y'all, they were like 30

Sir Daniel:

thank God.

Jay Ray:

which was totally surprising.

Sir Daniel:

It was only 30 minutes.

Sir Daniel:

It felt like an hour.

Sir Daniel:

Okay.

Sir Daniel:

Okay.

Sir Daniel:

Yeah,

Jay Ray:

like baby though.

Jay Ray:

We talk about it.

Sir Daniel:

we'll talk about it.

Sir Daniel:

So.

Sir Daniel:

So we, when, um, Jay Ray and I were discussing, uh, us discussing Being

Sir Daniel:

Bobby Brown on the show, I said, you know what, we've got to pull in someone

Sir Daniel:

who was right there in the zeitgeist of reality, reality television, but

Sir Daniel:

not just as a viewer, but somebody who, um, built a career as a. A commentator

Sir Daniel:

of reality television shows, as well as other pop culture, um, phenomenon.

Sir Daniel:

I want us to go back to the early two thousands, j Ray.

Sir Daniel:

The early two, the mid two thousands I think

Jay Ray:

where we, where we having like

Sir Daniel:

Raised world.

Sir Daniel:

Yes.

Sir Daniel:

And there was a time when the blog Spot, blog Spot blogger, this and

Sir Daniel:

that, blogs were just on fire.

Sir Daniel:

Blogs were everywhere.

Sir Daniel:

It was before we, you know, we had the tiktoks and the

Sir Daniel:

Instagrams and the Twitters.

Sir Daniel:

So actual people who took the time to write pieces, um, would.

Sir Daniel:

Upload these nights, these diatribes on different, all kinds of topics.

Sir Daniel:

You had some people who, who talked about music, who were

Sir Daniel:

critics who would post Jay Ray.

Sir Daniel:

I got a lot of free music back then in the blog, back in the blogger era

Sir Daniel:

because people were uploading a whole bunch of, um, unreleased songs in

Sir Daniel:

anyway, so people were doing that.

Sir Daniel:

And then you had, of course people who were doing gossip and then you

Sir Daniel:

had the reality television writer

Jay Ray:

Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel:

critique.

Sir Daniel:

And so one of my favorites, and I've said this time and time again, and I've said

Sir Daniel:

this, I've tweeted this to, to our guests.

Sir Daniel:

There was a time when I was working down at CBS radio and would hang

Sir Daniel:

out in Colony Square after, um, my job because I didn't, I was so

Sir Daniel:

broke, I didn't have wifi at home.

Sir Daniel:

So I would use the wifi in Colony Square to go and watch, look at

Sir Daniel:

my favorite blogs every day, and.

Sir Daniel:

There were two of them in particular that I could not go a day without looking at.

Sir Daniel:

The first one was crunk and Disorderly.

Jay Ray:

Yep.

Sir Daniel:

That was run by Fresh Lina, AKA Ika, and I see her every now and then

Sir Daniel:

on, on the socials, but I think she's, she's really fallen back from that.

Sir Daniel:

And the next blog, who's just written by our guest, our special guest

Sir Daniel:

today was a blog called Four four.

Jay Ray:

Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel:

And sometimes on this blog, our guests would, um, had

Sir Daniel:

a cat at the time that would make appearances on his blog also, Jared?

Sir Daniel:

Yes.

Sir Daniel:

And that's how much I was into this.

Sir Daniel:

I mean, I was into it.

Sir Daniel:

I was into it heavy because our guest was so witty and had such a keen

Sir Daniel:

perspective on different reality shows, like especially America's Next Top

Sir Daniel:

Model, which always had me in stitches.

Sir Daniel:

But Jay Ray, I want us to welcome our guest.

Sir Daniel:

So ladies and gentlemen, before we introduce and show you our guest,

Sir Daniel:

Jay Ray, I want you to do the man justice and give him his propers.

Jay Ray:

Absolutely.

Jay Ray:

We absolutely have to do this, and this is exciting y'all.

Jay Ray:

Juzwiak is a writer and podcaster from Brooklyn.

Jay Ray:

He is the co-host of the Pot Psych podcast and the co-writer of

Jay Ray:

Slate's Love and Sex Advice column.

Jay Ray:

How do you, how to do it?

Jay Ray:

I love that title.

Jay Ray:

His work has appeared in the New York Times, Pitchfork Time, Esquire,

Jay Ray:

the Washington Post, the Los Angeles Times, and More Queue Points Family.

Jay Ray:

It is our absolute pleasure to welcome Rich Juzwiak to Queue Points Rich.

Jay Ray:

Hello?

Rich Juzwiak:

Hello.

Rich Juzwiak:

Thank you.

Rich Juzwiak:

Thanks.

Rich Juzwiak:

It was such a nice intro and such a nice walk down memory lane,

Rich Juzwiak:

especially Crunk and Disorderly.

Rich Juzwiak:

I read that.

Rich Juzwiak:

Every day too.

Rich Juzwiak:

I

Sir Daniel:

Yes.

Rich Juzwiak:

and I talked all the time.

Rich Juzwiak:

She just felt like my people.

Rich Juzwiak:

So this is really nice.

Sir Daniel:

Absolutely.

Sir Daniel:

Thank you.

Sir Daniel:

Thank you for, for joining us and you know, as I, we set up in the beginning,

Sir Daniel:

um, the topic, the focus of this episode is going to be Being Bobby Brown.

Sir Daniel:

And.

Sir Daniel:

It, it dawned on us before we start hit record.

Sir Daniel:

It is like, there's probably a generation of people that have never even seen that

Sir Daniel:

show and don't even know that it exists.

Sir Daniel:

But as a writer, rich, like you've covered reality television,

Sir Daniel:

like I said, for many years.

Sir Daniel:

Um, how has reality television influenced you in your commentary as,

Sir Daniel:

um, as a writer and someone who puts a focus on the culture for people?

Rich Juzwiak:

Well, I think it's probably intensified my love of the

Rich Juzwiak:

absurd, um, which I've, I've long loved.

Rich Juzwiak:

I mean, you mentioned camp.

Rich Juzwiak:

I always thought, especially in the early days, that reality TV was kind of like.

Rich Juzwiak:

Ground zero of camp, uh, in modern culture.

Rich Juzwiak:

You know, you just saw people acting out like extreme human behavior is

Sir Daniel:

Mm-hmm.

Rich Juzwiak:

I wanted out of reality tv, you know?

Rich Juzwiak:

So, uh, just the kind of.

Rich Juzwiak:

I don't know, watching humans be and endearingly.

Rich Juzwiak:

So I love that aspect of it, you know?

Rich Juzwiak:

Um, and I think also probably it's affected my suspicions because just,

Rich Juzwiak:

you know, not just watching the shows, but like hearing people talk about

Rich Juzwiak:

them, understanding how they're made.

Rich Juzwiak:

We know how much is manipulated, so.

Rich Juzwiak:

I think in general it's made me a little bit more suspicious about

Rich Juzwiak:

kind of the messages that we receive and how doctor they can be.

Jay Ray:

Mm. So you actually, um.

Jay Ray:

Bring up something that I think is really important because I think my thought is

Jay Ray:

the early years, I'm thinking like real

Sir Daniel:

Real world.

Sir Daniel:

Yes.

Jay Ray:

It really did feel real like, well one, these were people

Jay Ray:

that we knew that the jobs that they were doing, we had seen, I had seen

Jay Ray:

Heather B in like BDP videos, so I

Sir Daniel:

Yes,

Jay Ray:

no, like she's just doing what she normally

Sir Daniel:

real.

Jay Ray:

this is what she do.

Jay Ray:

So it felt really real.

Jay Ray:

But we get to this point, and by the time, uh, the show we're about to talk

Jay Ray:

about comes out Being Bobby Brown.

Jay Ray:

We've already had the Osborne's, we've already had newlyweds.

Jay Ray:

And we've gotten, you know, many seasons of the real world by that point.

Jay Ray:

So that idea of by the early two thousands, we kind of have

Jay Ray:

a better, a more of a sense of the production of reality tv.

Jay Ray:

But do you think, when you think back to those early years and thinking

Jay Ray:

about the real world, do you see that as more real from your perspective?

Rich Juzwiak:

sure.

Rich Juzwiak:

Well, I mean, the first real world, nobody had any idea what that was gonna be.

Jay Ray:

Mm-hmm.

Rich Juzwiak:

understand what that would look like on tv.

Rich Juzwiak:

You know, they were just, they signed up for a documentary basically, and

Rich Juzwiak:

they just kind of lived their lives.

Rich Juzwiak:

I mean, there was probably something of a Hawthorne effect, you know, um,

Rich Juzwiak:

that's a term about like, uh, uh, scientific studies, how the very act

Rich Juzwiak:

of being studied can affect people.

Rich Juzwiak:

This is something that has been kind of, of observed and documented

Rich Juzwiak:

for like a hundred years.

Rich Juzwiak:

So you turn a camera on somebody, are they their truest selves?

Rich Juzwiak:

Maybe not.

Rich Juzwiak:

But when you don't have an entire industry or, or like a career path, uh, in front

Rich Juzwiak:

of you that you know about, I think you're gonna get a far different effect

Rich Juzwiak:

than a few seasons in, uh, when people understand that they can, you know, uh, do

Rich Juzwiak:

the lecture, college lecture circuit than came the challenge and all of this stuff

Rich Juzwiak:

where it behooves you to make TV so that they keep putting you on TV and

Rich Juzwiak:

then you can have a career from that.

Sir Daniel:

Hmm.

Rich Juzwiak:

although I will, I do think that, uh, in terms of all of this,

Rich Juzwiak:

uh, Being Bobby Brown is an example of something that did feel really real to me.

Rich Juzwiak:

Um, in a lot of ways.

Rich Juzwiak:

I mean, the show is basically about nothing.

Rich Juzwiak:

It's about like sitting around the show's about like being in

Rich Juzwiak:

hotels and going out to dinner,

Jay Ray:

Right.

Rich Juzwiak:

two things that like I love, uh, you know,

Jay Ray:

So thank you so much, rich, for doing that, because when, so as,

Jay Ray:

as, as, as Sir Daniel mentioned, um, I had not seen Being Bobby Brown.

Rich Juzwiak:

Right.

Jay Ray:

The early two thousands.

Jay Ray:

So back in the day folks, cable had packages, right?

Jay Ray:

So you got to determine what you got based on what package you had.

Jay Ray:

And Bravo wasn't in the package that I had, and even as a music lover,

Jay Ray:

I was like, I am not getting Bravo just so I can watch Bobby Brown and

Jay Ray:

Whitney Houston in 2005 on reality tv.

Jay Ray:

That sounds.

Jay Ray:

Not like something I wanted to do, so I missed the whole thing.

Jay Ray:

So thank you for kind of setting up, setting up the show, because when I

Jay Ray:

went to watch it in preparation for this conversation, I was just sitting

Jay Ray:

there like, oh, oh, is this, what?

Jay Ray:

Is this what we're doing?

Jay Ray:

We're not doing much today.

Jay Ray:

This is like

Sir Daniel:

Yeah.

Jay Ray:

except Whitney, Bobby family, and a bunch of random other people in Atlanta.

Sir Daniel:

Yeah.

Rich Juzwiak:

that.

Rich Juzwiak:

That was enough

Jay Ray:

Right.

Sir Daniel:

Right.

Rich Juzwiak:

they

Sir Daniel:

Yeah.

Rich Juzwiak:

more than that.

Sir Daniel:

I was completely sold from the beginning, but I will

Sir Daniel:

say this, J uh, rich, I really do believe that Kathy Griffin is

Sir Daniel:

really the one that set up and like.

Sir Daniel:

Lobb that ball o out the, um, the ballpark when it came to Being Bobby

Sir Daniel:

Brown, because she, I think was the, the, the, the starting point for us

Sir Daniel:

having this interest in who Whitney Houston was outside of what we saw on

Sir Daniel:

te on videos and, and, and performances.

Sir Daniel:

Because Kathy Griffith's, um, accounts of celebrity accounts of

Sir Daniel:

run run-ins with celebrities, but her Whitney Houston stories were always.

Sir Daniel:

Way over the top and hilarious.

Sir Daniel:

Like there was an instance where she said, I ran into Whitney Houston,

Sir Daniel:

and she just stopped and stared at me and said, you're funny.

Sir Daniel:

And the crowd erupted in laughter because we knew that meant like,

Rich Juzwiak:

Yeah,

Sir Daniel:

you might wanna run because Whitney Houston is probably about to,

Sir Daniel:

you know, about, to push you really quickly, but like, um, but as far as the

Sir Daniel:

show is concerned, like you set up the premise and Rich, you made, you made a

Sir Daniel:

great point about a lot of reality shows.

Sir Daniel:

Take people that don't necessarily have a, a career path.

Sir Daniel:

Put them and, and create personalities or, well, I should say assign them

Sir Daniel:

personalities and then give them a platform to become a star, quote

Sir Daniel:

unquote, without any actual talent.

Sir Daniel:

But the, with Being Bobby Brown, though Whitney Houston and Bobby Brown are.

Sir Daniel:

Tried and true celebrities, performers, all of that.

Sir Daniel:

Um, just looking back on being brown, why, why do you think it

Sir Daniel:

became such a cultural touchstone?

Rich Juzwiak:

Well, so, um, Whitney is the foremost reason I. Think, uh, you know,

Rich Juzwiak:

we look at the years leading up to it.

Rich Juzwiak:

Um, in 2001 there was the Michael Jackson tribute, which

Rich Juzwiak:

Diane Sawyer referenced in her

Jay Ray:

Mm-hmm.

Jay Ray:

Yep.

Rich Juzwiak:

which had people worried.

Rich Juzwiak:

And, you know, there were rumors around nine 11 that Whitney had.

Rich Juzwiak:

Died.

Jay Ray:

Mm-hmm.

Rich Juzwiak:

like issue a press release being like, we have a lot

Rich Juzwiak:

more important things going on.

Rich Juzwiak:

I'm alive.

Jay Ray:

Yes.

Rich Juzwiak:

so there was the crack, his whack Diane Sawyer interview, which

Rich Juzwiak:

like I thought was really overblown the way that people reacted to it.

Rich Juzwiak:

I thought Whitney made a lot of good

Jay Ray:

Mm-hmm.

Rich Juzwiak:

I want to see the receipts because like literally

Rich Juzwiak:

how would somebody else know about her drug bill if they didn't

Jay Ray:

Yes, rich.

Sir Daniel:

Absolutely.

Rich Juzwiak:

of that, but she was right.

Sir Daniel:

Do you know Diane, do you,

Jay Ray:

Whitney, we love you so much.

Sir Daniel:

oh.

Rich Juzwiak:

Right.

Rich Juzwiak:

And then, and then there was, you know, the, the, the 2003 trip to

Rich Juzwiak:

Israel with the black Hebrews,

Jay Ray:

Yep.

Rich Juzwiak:

now what are they doing?

Rich Juzwiak:

And, and also, you know, before that Whitney and Bobby were

Rich Juzwiak:

always this kind of topic of.

Rich Juzwiak:

Conversation mystery, not just because of the, you know, then

Rich Juzwiak:

lesbian rumors about Whitney,

Jay Ray:

Mm-hmm.

Rich Juzwiak:

that people said, oh, they're so mismatched.

Rich Juzwiak:

Why are, why are they together?

Rich Juzwiak:

That doesn't make sense.

Rich Juzwiak:

So this show offered a, a view, a bird's eye view, a a, a bug

Rich Juzwiak:

on the wall view of, of what?

Rich Juzwiak:

That would be like, and um, and also because it was so raw, you know, a lot of

Rich Juzwiak:

the kind of things that we, people were picking up on were Bobby talking about.

Rich Juzwiak:

Digging stuff outta Whitney's butt and

Sir Daniel:

Yeah.

Rich Juzwiak:

sexual kind

Jay Ray:

Yes.

Rich Juzwiak:

the, the way that they related to each other, um,

Rich Juzwiak:

in a very kind of sexual way.

Rich Juzwiak:

Um, like I, I, for the record, I don't think I, I've been rewatching actually

Rich Juzwiak:

for my podcast for like a Patreon tear.

Rich Juzwiak:

Rewatching the osbournes who lived in filth, literal filth, I mean

Rich Juzwiak:

like dog feces all over the place.

Rich Juzwiak:

And I don't remember people really getting on them the way that they got on

Rich Juzwiak:

Bobby and Whitney who were just, I mean, don't think this show is that outrageous

Rich Juzwiak:

in terms of what it's portraying.

Rich Juzwiak:

You know, they obviously were doing drugs and in

Jay Ray:

Mm-hmm.

Jay Ray:

Mm-hmm.

Rich Juzwiak:

you know, they were smoking blunts and okay, maybe if

Rich Juzwiak:

they had some Coke in the blunts, but it wasn't like, I don't know,

Sir Daniel:

Just a look.

Rich Juzwiak:

what we're seeing on that show is not

Rich Juzwiak:

kind of the belly of the beast.

Rich Juzwiak:

These are two functioning people spending time with each

Rich Juzwiak:

other, laughing so much with

Jay Ray:

Yeah.

Rich Juzwiak:

for me at least, I, I never really doubted Bobby and

Rich Juzwiak:

Whitney's love, but this show made me.

Rich Juzwiak:

Absolutely certain that they were completely in love with each other,

Rich Juzwiak:

uh, maybe codependent, but they, that love is so strong on that show.

Rich Juzwiak:

Um, you know, if you wanna talk about family values, there you go.

Rich Juzwiak:

Being Bobby Brown.

Jay Ray:

Mm. That's such an interesting thing.

Jay Ray:

So I, I, so one of the things I found myself having to do y'all

Jay Ray:

when I was going back and getting ready for this show is I had to.

Jay Ray:

Take off my 2025 Johnny hat and like, because at first when I

Jay Ray:

started watching it, Ooh, fun story.

Jay Ray:

So I wa watched the Christmas, there's like a Christmas special or whatever.

Jay Ray:

And I kind of remember pieces of this because I remember when the choir came

Jay Ray:

to the house and Whitney was, you know, like, and I'm like, Lord, this is a lot.

Jay Ray:

So I do remember seeing that at some point at the time.

Jay Ray:

But what struck me as an aside is.

Jay Ray:

and the fur.

Jay Ray:

I was like, Ooh, that's the fur that she was wearing when she went to

Jay Ray:

the gas station and her white Hummer that she was telling Whitney about.

Jay Ray:

That's the fur.

Jay Ray:

that struck me immediately.

Jay Ray:

Right now back to the show.

Jay Ray:

So think at first I was like.

Jay Ray:

God, I can't do, I can't do this.

Jay Ray:

Knowing all the stuff that came later, right?

Sir Daniel:

Right.

Sir Daniel:

Yeah.

Jay Ray:

know now about the totality of Whitney's life, her experience

Jay Ray:

and what she was going through.

Jay Ray:

I was kind of sitting with that as I was watching the show, but

Jay Ray:

at some point I was like, okay, Johnny, but take a second, right?

Jay Ray:

And then like take all of that off and just like watch this

Jay Ray:

from like a 2005 perspective.

Jay Ray:

then I'm like.

Jay Ray:

I can kind of see how this would be entertaining for people to see in 2005,

Jay Ray:

because we're getting to your point, a fly on the wall view of Whitney Houston

Rich Juzwiak:

Yeah.

Jay Ray:

home.

Rich Juzwiak:

Right.

Rich Juzwiak:

Doesn't get bigger than that.

Jay Ray:

No.

Jay Ray:

Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel:

Yeah, I think,

Rich Juzwiak:

I, I'm sorry.

Rich Juzwiak:

Go ahead.

Sir Daniel:

no, no, no.

Sir Daniel:

You um, I was just gonna say, I think that was the draw.

Sir Daniel:

That was the.

Sir Daniel:

The, the, the, the hook, especially for the, for the channel was like,

Sir Daniel:

because there would be a lot of scenes where she wasn't there, she wasn't

Sir Daniel:

on camera, and then she would all of a sudden appear and it was like,

Sir Daniel:

oh, oh, it's about to be on now.

Sir Daniel:

Whatever's about to happen.

Sir Daniel:

All the cameras were focused on her.

Sir Daniel:

So, but yes, please go ahead, rich.

Sir Daniel:

I I didn't mean to cut you off.

Rich Juzwiak:

Oh, uh, no, not at all.

Rich Juzwiak:

Um, I, I don't think, I mean, like Nick and Jessica were kind

Rich Juzwiak:

of coming up and Ozzy Osborne

Sir Daniel:

I forgot about

Rich Juzwiak:

had, know, he had, he is a rock god, but I don't think

Rich Juzwiak:

that you could really argue outside of the eighties that he was a-list.

Jay Ray:

Mm-hmm.

Rich Juzwiak:

Whitney Houston was a-list.

Jay Ray:

list.

Rich Juzwiak:

was

Sir Daniel:

for sure.

Rich Juzwiak:

you know, the time that you give good love

Jay Ray:

Mm-hmm.

Rich Juzwiak:

through

Jay Ray:

Mm-hmm.

Rich Juzwiak:

her life.

Rich Juzwiak:

So it was a huge deal that somebody of that stature was

Rich Juzwiak:

doing a project like this,

Jay Ray:

Yeah, I'm, I'm wondering to that point then.

Jay Ray:

Um, 'cause one of the other things, like I said, I had to kind of suspend belief.

Jay Ray:

I'm, I'm thinking about two things.

Jay Ray:

Um, I'm thinking about the legacies.

Jay Ray:

Whitney's legacy specifically.

Jay Ray:

'cause it's very, I was talking to Sir Daniel before you hopped on Rich

Jay Ray:

about how different Bobby Brown is today and I can't imagine Bobby wanting

Jay Ray:

to even see Being Bobby Brown, just kind of like looking at him in 2005

Jay Ray:

and looking at where he is today.

Jay Ray:

I'm sure he would be like, nah son, I just, I live that.

Jay Ray:

I'm good.

Jay Ray:

Right.

Rich Juzwiak:

Yeah.

Jay Ray:

I'm, I've been thinking about their legacies and the other

Jay Ray:

thing I was thinking about is.

Jay Ray:

One was this exploitative, like, okay.

Jay Ray:

At the time, so Rich, how, how were you seeing this from, from your blog, right?

Jay Ray:

Where do you see this show falling?

Jay Ray:

Definitely entertaining.

Jay Ray:

Was it exploitative?

Jay Ray:

Do you feel differently today than you felt then?

Jay Ray:

Like what's kind of your thought process?

Rich Juzwiak:

well, it's, I mean, yeah, to, to your point, it's hard to watch

Rich Juzwiak:

this show, uh, with like a. Light heart,

Jay Ray:

Mm-hmm.

Rich Juzwiak:

two thirds of the main family unit that we're

Jay Ray:

Yes,

Rich Juzwiak:

with

Jay Ray:

yes.

Rich Juzwiak:

you know, and, and I mean the, the, there's, there's

Rich Juzwiak:

just tragedy upon tragedy there.

Rich Juzwiak:

Like the, the fact that Bobby Christina died is

Jay Ray:

Yes.

Rich Juzwiak:

Like, I can't, sometimes I forget, you know, like

Rich Juzwiak:

think about Whitney's death like.

Rich Juzwiak:

Multiple times a week.

Jay Ray:

Mm-hmm.

Rich Juzwiak:

day for like the 10 years after basically.

Rich Juzwiak:

And it's still very frequently, but Bobby, Christina is almost like

Rich Juzwiak:

another level of just so tragic.

Rich Juzwiak:

So there is that aspect, you know?

Rich Juzwiak:

Um, I think, I think it's a really kind of complicated question.

Rich Juzwiak:

I think exploitation in general is a really complicated question because like.

Rich Juzwiak:

Entertainment and certainly like mass culture basically exists to exploit.

Rich Juzwiak:

Um, sometimes it's done more ethically than others, but there's general, uh,

Rich Juzwiak:

there's almost always a bunch of usually white, powerful people in control

Rich Juzwiak:

of something and that are profiting.

Rich Juzwiak:

You know, more heartedly than the people ever actually involved.

Jay Ray:

Mm-hmm.

Rich Juzwiak:

this is just the music industry.

Rich Juzwiak:

Releasing a record is exploitation.

Rich Juzwiak:

Um,

Sir Daniel:

Mm-hmm.

Rich Juzwiak:

think that something that makes Being Bobby Brown a little

Rich Juzwiak:

bit different is in my understanding, this show was filmed and wrapped

Rich Juzwiak:

by the time they were selling it.

Rich Juzwiak:

I'm, I'm pretty sure I might be wrong about that, but I think

Rich Juzwiak:

that a lot of it was in the can when they were taking it to,

Jay Ray:

Wow.

Rich Juzwiak:

different.

Rich Juzwiak:

Outlets and it was Bobby Brown's production company.

Jay Ray:

Mm-hmm.

Rich Juzwiak:

if it's exploitation, then Bobby Brown is exploiting himself.

Jay Ray:

Mm-hmm.

Rich Juzwiak:

I'm pretty sure in the Oprah interview I meant to

Rich Juzwiak:

go back and watch it 'cause I've watched that interview so many times.

Rich Juzwiak:

The uh, 2009 Oprah interview, I think it is 2009.

Rich Juzwiak:

I'm pretty sure that Whitney said that she did it for him.

Rich Juzwiak:

didn't want to do it and she did it for her husband who

Rich Juzwiak:

really wanted to do this thing.

Rich Juzwiak:

So, I don't know.

Rich Juzwiak:

I mean, did he exploit her, uh, kind of Whitney also?

Rich Juzwiak:

I mean, you watch this show.

Rich Juzwiak:

Do you think Whitney was gonna do anything she didn't want to do

Rich Juzwiak:

for like a long period of time?

Rich Juzwiak:

I

Jay Ray:

Absolutely no.

Sir Daniel:

Absolutely not.

Jay Ray:

she was very much in control of what Whitney Houston wanted to do.

Rich Juzwiak:

Exactly, exactly.

Rich Juzwiak:

She knew.

Rich Juzwiak:

I I, so it's hard, know, drugs are involved and

Jay Ray:

Mm-hmm.

Rich Juzwiak:

led to her downfall, but

Sir Daniel:

Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel:

Right.

Rich Juzwiak:

but I certainly would understand that argument given

Rich Juzwiak:

entire context of what was happening.

Jay Ray:

Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel:

You know, I think that's fair because if you fast forward to

Sir Daniel:

today, like there was supposed to be a DeBarge, um, reality show, and we,

Sir Daniel:

we were, we're well versed in the, the triumphant tragedy of the DeBarge family.

Sir Daniel:

And we saw the trailers and it was like, okay, that's, that's a bit much.

Sir Daniel:

And it leads me to think about where we are now as far as reality

Sir Daniel:

television is, is concerned.

Sir Daniel:

And to your point, rich earlier about it being like a, you know, a industry

Sir Daniel:

that calls for your pound of flesh, but the people, but the sheep per

Sir Daniel:

se, are kind of leading themselves in by the leash themselves now because

Sir Daniel:

reality television has become.

Sir Daniel:

This, this springboard for stardom, for fame, for wealth.

Sir Daniel:

And I think a lot more people are more intrigued by the fame part.

Sir Daniel:

Now, that's my opinion.

Sir Daniel:

Um, but as far as the quality of reality television today.

Sir Daniel:

Is, and you know, so Daniel will say that Being Bobby Brown was quality television.

Sir Daniel:

I'm sorry.

Sir Daniel:

It was, it was good

Rich Juzwiak:

Yeah.

Rich Juzwiak:

Yeah,

Sir Daniel:

me.

Sir Daniel:

I had a good time.

Sir Daniel:

I had a good time watching it.

Sir Daniel:

But now there are things that I just have absolutely no interest

Sir Daniel:

in watching because it just feels, it just, everybody feels contrived.

Sir Daniel:

We know that there is a, a room, a control room full of people.

Sir Daniel:

Everybody has like workshopped their personality and their storyline

Sir Daniel:

before they even got on camera.

Sir Daniel:

So it just doesn't, it just, it's not satisfying to me anymore.

Sir Daniel:

So where are we now with reality television, rich.

Sir Daniel:

And what about the future of it?

Sir Daniel:

Is it, are we still gonna have reality television saying the next five years?

Rich Juzwiak:

Yeah.

Rich Juzwiak:

Uh, well, I mean, I, I think that like this specific type of reality

Rich Juzwiak:

TV of celebrities existing has kind of fallen off in a big way.

Rich Juzwiak:

I mean, there are still shows, there was the Baldwins, um,

Jay Ray:

Oh yeah,

Rich Juzwiak:

Sylvester Stallone is on a reality

Jay Ray:

Izzy.

Rich Juzwiak:

about

Jay Ray:

I didn't know that.

Rich Juzwiak:

Yeah.

Rich Juzwiak:

Yeah.

Rich Juzwiak:

I didn't

Sir Daniel:

It doesn't sound.

Rich Juzwiak:

commercials for it and I was like, I'm gonna skip that.

Rich Juzwiak:

I didn't

Sir Daniel:

Yeah.

Rich Juzwiak:

that.

Rich Juzwiak:

Um, so, but, but, but.

Rich Juzwiak:

As it kind of fell off, uh, social media and Instagram and, and ways of capturing

Rich Juzwiak:

celebrities, ways of celebrities capturing themselves via video kind of took off.

Rich Juzwiak:

So there's less of a need for it.

Rich Juzwiak:

And here's where like the kind of exploiters like are useful because I think

Rich Juzwiak:

that what you get a lot of the time is, you know, like anybody's social media

Rich Juzwiak:

feed, very curated, very kind of like.

Rich Juzwiak:

Not the reality, but the reality that they want to show you.

Rich Juzwiak:

Whereas if you have people in control, like, uh, like, like on

Rich Juzwiak:

Hey Paula, that's a crazy show.

Rich Juzwiak:

You could definitely argue that's exploitation, but that they can't

Rich Juzwiak:

take your eyes away from it.

Rich Juzwiak:

But you would never get that side of Paula Abdul if she were left to her own devices,

Jay Ray:

Hmm.

Rich Juzwiak:

Uh, you know, it, there is, there is something to be said for

Rich Juzwiak:

having a kind of, uh, person in charge, you know, from a journalistic standpoint

Rich Juzwiak:

that's actually going to help show the story as it will look to observers

Rich Juzwiak:

as opposed to, oh, I'm having this.

Rich Juzwiak:

Subjective experience, and I'm gonna show you what it is.

Rich Juzwiak:

So for me, like what's come close to Being Bobby Brown is something like Justin

Rich Juzwiak:

Bieber crashing out on Instagram or,

Sir Daniel:

Hmm.

Rich Juzwiak:

like Britney Spears' memoir.

Rich Juzwiak:

I thought that, like that in terms of like, oh, we're going

Rich Juzwiak:

to get something really good.

Rich Juzwiak:

The Britney Spears memoir came closest to feeling like Bobby Brown Being Bobby Brown

Rich Juzwiak:

since Being Bobby Brown to me, you know?

Sir Daniel:

Okay.

Sir Daniel:

Okay.

Jay Ray:

I absolutely thank you so much for giving us that perspective

Jay Ray:

and especially in the world that we live in now with social media.

Jay Ray:

I think that's a really important point.

Jay Ray:

I am curious before we transition out of, uh, Being Bobby Brown, we have a

Jay Ray:

couple more things we want to chat about.

Jay Ray:

Um, do you see.

Jay Ray:

In the reality TV space, and I mean, when we think about Bravo now, Bravo

Jay Ray:

is kind of synonymous with reality tv.

Rich Juzwiak:

Right.

Jay Ray:

we see Being Bobby Brown, like pieces of that and what

Jay Ray:

they were doing there kind of echoed, um, in shows, uh, today.

Jay Ray:

Are you seeing any of that?

Rich Juzwiak:

I don't, I don't know because it's so singular, you know?

Rich Juzwiak:

I mean, Whitney would show up on screen without makeup and kind of a wet look wig,

Jay Ray:

Yes.

Rich Juzwiak:

that was.

Rich Juzwiak:

That was impactful in a

Jay Ray:

Yes.

Rich Juzwiak:

that

Jay Ray:

Yes.

Rich Juzwiak:

doing that wouldn't be because the nobody

Rich Juzwiak:

else is Whitney Houston.

Rich Juzwiak:

You know?

Rich Juzwiak:

So it, it, it's very, it's very hard to kind of say.

Rich Juzwiak:

And also keep in mind that like, people watch the show and people talk a lot

Rich Juzwiak:

about Being Bobby Brown, but there was a lot of negativity about it.

Rich Juzwiak:

And I don't know, that people would like, basically at the time

Rich Juzwiak:

would've had, would have admitted to being influenced by it, you know,

Jay Ray:

Mm.

Rich Juzwiak:

and large.

Rich Juzwiak:

So, so it's hard to say.

Rich Juzwiak:

And then, and then of course, like, you know.

Rich Juzwiak:

2007, two years later is the Kardashians, which kind of changes everything.

Sir Daniel:

Yeah.

Rich Juzwiak:

and so I guess, but that show was kind of boring too, right?

Rich Juzwiak:

So kind of like nothing happened in a

Rich Juzwiak:

way, but although also that's really when you started seeing the contrivance too.

Rich Juzwiak:

So there's just something about the fact that, that you, you're, you

Rich Juzwiak:

took like this, this couple that was.

Rich Juzwiak:

So cared about by people who listen to pop music,

Rich Juzwiak:

especially black music,

Rich Juzwiak:

like just Whitney and Bobby are just a couple for the ages.

Rich Juzwiak:

You

Rich Juzwiak:

know, you say those names.

Rich Juzwiak:

Everybody knows exactly what you're talking about, what

Rich Juzwiak:

they were like, what that

Jay Ray:

Yep.

Rich Juzwiak:

you just, you, you don't really get that.

Rich Juzwiak:

You're not gonna get real Housewives being like that because they're

Rich Juzwiak:

not Whitney and Bobby, you know?

Sir Daniel:

Yeah.

Sir Daniel:

Yeah.

Rich Juzwiak:

There is, there's actually a scene in being Bobby Brem, where,

Rich Juzwiak:

where they're being interviewed on a red carpet and they're talking about the show

Rich Juzwiak:

that was coming up and someone said, oh, are you gonna be like Nick and Jessica?

Rich Juzwiak:

And she and Whitney says, they're cute, but we're Whitney and Bobby.

Sir Daniel:

Bobby.

Sir Daniel:

Yep, absolutely.

Sir Daniel:

And she was right.

Sir Daniel:

She was absolutely right.

Sir Daniel:

AB absolutely nobody else can compare to those two.

Sir Daniel:

Um, so quick transition, quick, you know, while we have you here because we

Sir Daniel:

know you've got your ear to the street.

Sir Daniel:

what, what is like really, what has really got you going these days, rich?

Sir Daniel:

What do you just like tap your veins and you want to inject it into daily?

Sir Daniel:

Uh, as far as pop culture is concerned.

Rich Juzwiak:

Well, uh, my favorite record of the year is the Twigs record.

Rich Juzwiak:

Speaking

Jay Ray:

I love that it's sexual.

Rich Juzwiak:

Usua.

Rich Juzwiak:

Yes.

Rich Juzwiak:

I, I, I, to me she's kind of like the platonic ideal of a pop star where

Rich Juzwiak:

she does stuff that's so far out and yet is able to kind of keep things.

Rich Juzwiak:

Intelligible to, to a kind of Yiddish audience.

Rich Juzwiak:

You know, it's the thing that kind of like Bjork and Prince and Timbaland and Kate

Sir Daniel:

Mm-hmm.

Rich Juzwiak:

had where they are making pop music, but it just

Rich Juzwiak:

does, it sounds like, of another world to me, like Twigs does that.

Rich Juzwiak:

So I've been a little bit disappointed with her attitude sometimes this year.

Sir Daniel:

Yeah.

Rich Juzwiak:

in general.

Rich Juzwiak:

Um, I, I, I really, really love that record and I want more stuff to be

Rich Juzwiak:

that good because like I, you know, I care about pop music, but a lot of

Rich Juzwiak:

the kind of B tier working class pop girls that, you know, gay men love

Rich Juzwiak:

so much, just don't do it for me.

Rich Juzwiak:

There's a lot of mediocrity

Jay Ray:

We talk about it all the time.

Rich Juzwiak:

I mean, there's, there's just stuff I, I just don't get it a lot

Rich Juzwiak:

of the time and, know, unfortunately as I've gotten older, I have.

Rich Juzwiak:

Just found it harder to love stuff.

Rich Juzwiak:

There's stuff I like, but like,

Sir Daniel:

Yeah.

Rich Juzwiak:

the way that, like, I would care about like a

Rich Juzwiak:

Sierra album coming out, just it,

Sir Daniel:

Yeah.

Jay Ray:

Yeah.

Rich Juzwiak:

that

Jay Ray:

not the same.

Rich Juzwiak:

me that much anymore.

Sir Daniel:

There aren't stars anymore.

Sir Daniel:

I, in my opinion, I don't, the rollouts aren't, there are no rollouts.

Sir Daniel:

It just doesn't feel like you said, it just doesn't feel like

Sir Daniel:

you we're not being edged enough.

Sir Daniel:

I'm, for, for lack of a better term, we're not, you know, we're

Sir Daniel:

not, there's no teasing, there's no titillating us anymore.

Jay Ray:

listen, rich, before we get out of here, the people

Jay Ray:

have to connect with you.

Jay Ray:

You have a podcast, you have all types of things going on.

Jay Ray:

So tell, how do you, how should people get into the Rich Juzwiak world?

Jay Ray:

Like where should they start?

Rich Juzwiak:

Okay, well, I mean, uh, my podcast is like where my

Rich Juzwiak:

podcast is basically like my blog

Jay Ray:

Mm-hmm.

Rich Juzwiak:

days.

Rich Juzwiak:

It's like where I put stuff that I'm not writing about, that I just have

Rich Juzwiak:

like a thing or two to say about, you know, that I'm not gonna write

Rich Juzwiak:

a whole essay about or whatever.

Rich Juzwiak:

So that's pot psych, uh, that's, you know, anywhere.

Rich Juzwiak:

You listen to podcasts, Spotify, apple Podcasts, et cetera.

Rich Juzwiak:

You can listen to that.

Rich Juzwiak:

I mean, it is a big bunch of nonsense, I have to say.

Rich Juzwiak:

But, um, I wouldn't have it any other way really.

Jay Ray:

Right.

Sir Daniel:

We love.

Rich Juzwiak:

know, the extreme human behavior, the absurdity I'm

Rich Juzwiak:

trying to put back out into the world, what I love so much about it.

Rich Juzwiak:

Um, and then, and then I write this column for slate, you know.

Rich Juzwiak:

It's not pop culture, although I sometimes make a pop culture reference,

Rich Juzwiak:

but it's called how to Do It, and we publish that like multiple times a week.

Rich Juzwiak:

So, you know, I'm a, I'm the co-writer.

Rich Juzwiak:

Uh, I write with Stoya, um, who's, you know, a former adult performer

Rich Juzwiak:

and a thinker, and she's wonderful.

Rich Juzwiak:

So we have a lot of fun with that.

Rich Juzwiak:

We've been doing that for like six years.

Jay Ray:

Awesome.

Rich Juzwiak:

uh, you know, my Instagram, rich Jz, R-I-C-H-J-U-Z.

Rich Juzwiak:

You know, I pub I put stuff up there from time to time, but I'm

Rich Juzwiak:

not super, like I, I used to tweet all the time and now I don't.

Rich Juzwiak:

And then I stopped and now I don't even know where I would start.

Jay Ray:

Yeah.

Rich Juzwiak:

don't have the capacity to just keep go like

Rich Juzwiak:

I have other stuff to do,

Jay Ray:

Yes.

Jay Ray:

Yes.

Rich Juzwiak:

I can't, I just fell off with that.

Rich Juzwiak:

So I'm not like super, super active on social media,

Jay Ray:

Mm-hmm.

Rich Juzwiak:

see something that makes me chuckle, I'll throw

Rich Juzwiak:

it on my Instagram stories.

Jay Ray:

beads.

Rich Juzwiak:

yeah,

Sir Daniel:

Awesome.

Sir Daniel:

Well, this has been a treat.

Sir Daniel:

I, you know, I'm super, super grateful to have had you on

Sir Daniel:

this episode of Queue Points.

Sir Daniel:

Um, Jay Ray, let the folks know what they need to know.

Jay Ray:

Well listen y'all, thank you so much.

Jay Ray:

If you can see our faces and hear our voices, make sure that you go

Jay Ray:

ahead and subscribe and make sure that you go on over and subscribe

Jay Ray:

to Pot Psych as well, um, because you wanna share this information.

Jay Ray:

So if you like it, maybe your friends, your colleagues, your

Jay Ray:

family, they might like it too.

Jay Ray:

So go ahead and share it.

Jay Ray:

That is.

Jay Ray:

Absolutely free.

Jay Ray:

You could visit, um, our website@qpoints.com.

Jay Ray:

There you can see our entire archive of episodes.

Jay Ray:

And baby, there are a lot of episodes to tune into.

Jay Ray:

Uh, so you should do that.

Jay Ray:

You can also check out our, uh, digital publication Queue Points mag, where you

Jay Ray:

get some additional stuff over there, um, at magazine dot Queue Points.com.

Jay Ray:

And if you wanna support the show, you can check out our store@store.qpoints.com.

Jay Ray:

We appreciate y'all, we love y'all.

Sir Daniel:

We absolutely do, and it's like I say in every episode

Sir Daniel:

in this life, you have a choice.

Sir Daniel:

You can either pick up the needle or you could let the record play.

Sir Daniel:

I'm being Sir Daniel.

Jay Ray:

I am being Jay Ray, are you gonna be rich?

Rich Juzwiak:

being rich.

Rich Juzwiak:

Je

Sir Daniel:

And this has been podcast dropping the needle

Sir Daniel:

on black music history.

Sir Daniel:

We will see you on the next go round.

Sir Daniel:

Peace everybody.

Jay Ray:

Peace, y'all.

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About the Podcast

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Queue Points

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About your hosts

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DJ Sir Daniel

DJ Sir Daniel is a DJ/Selector and part of Atlanta's, all-vinyl crew, Wax Fundamentals. Co-host of the Queue Points podcast, he is an advocate for DJ culture and is passionate about creating atmospheres of inclusivity and jubilation from a Black perspective.

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Jay Ray

Johnnie Ray Kornegay III (Jay Ray) is a podcast consultant and co-host and producer of Queue Points, the Ambie Award-nominated podcast that drops the needle on Black music history. In addition to his duties at Queue Points, he is the Deputy Director of Strategy and Impact for CNP (Counter Narrative Project). A photographer, creative consultant and social commentator, Jay Ray's work is centered around a commitment to telling full and honest stories about communities often ignored.